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Original author: fuqueiji (Flarum #998)
@aewuu yes, we understood the tradeoff part. Any way you wanna develop your point even more or anything else you wanna add?
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Original author: KaptainPickles (Flarum #722)
I don’t agree that there needs to be “a tradeoff”. Most, if not all, AP skills are strong. But that’s not what I’m here about. Cardis are a support class that already have a significant amount of buffs and support that need to occur. Spamming skills unnecessarily as aewuu continues to suggest and push is taking excessive amounts of time away from what it means to be a support class and play as a Cardinal. It is unnatural game play, and unnatural game play should not be required to use Cardinal skills.
I agree with the solution from @Canis. These particular buffs would go a long way for support Cardis.
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Original author: fuqueiji (Flarum #998)
@KaptainPickles Can you develop what scenarios Cardis have it rough to recover AP? As Canis said in the post you linked, for field farming you can just go back. Also, as I said, for instances with party play we have EMs. If you want to buff AP regen for party with just yourself, I’d vouch for not buffing cause it would be another argument for not playing with other people.
Also, can you give us some words about: What is the line for buffing other classes that have a gameplay that “is not what it was supposed to have”
I agree that the “trade off” is a very not interesting thing, but should we start changing other RO mechanics also?
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Original author: aewuu (Flarum #575)
lol
https://forum.muhro.eu/assets/files/2026-01-13/1768269925-97207-image.png
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Original author: GM_Icecold (Flarum #3)
Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences and examples. It’s clear there are two angles being discussed here:
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Whether AP generation for Support Cardinal is workable with the tools we currently have.
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Whether the current loop feels natural and role-aligned during real party gameplay.
Both perspectives are valid, so please try not to frame replies as if the other side is denying your experience.
Just a few friendly reminders so we can keep this thread helpful:
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Please keep things respectful and avoid comments about other players’ skill level or competence. Disagree with the point, not the person.
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If something seems unclear, quote the line you’re responding to and ask for clarification rather than assuming intent.
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Let’s keep the scope on Support Cardinal AP generation and Competentia uptime. Comparisons can be useful, but if it turns into a broader “buff other classes too” discussion, please open a separate thread and link it here.
Also as a general reminder: we follow kRO and we have not touched skills outside of PvP.
To help the team review this constructively, it would be great if replies include:
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The scenario (D1/D2 farming, ToT/CT, instances, after a wipe, etc.)
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What you’re using to generate AP in that scenario
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What feels bad in practice (time cost, attention cost, opportunity cost, reliance on healer/EM, etc.)
If the discussion goes out of hand, please reach out to our Muh-Staff in discord.
Thanks again and let’s keep it constructive and actionable. 
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Original author: KaptainPickles (Flarum #722)
@fuqueiji
Sure. From an earlier post I wrote above:
@KaptainPickles For ex., I ran D2 with a random party during HH one of these last few days. This party did not really need direct heals, Renovatio + Mediale on the main DPS and some Reparatio was fine for the 30 min run. I did not have need for Dilectio Heal and I could not keep Compe up unless we went back to turn in and I used the healer. The only way for me to have generated anywhere near enough AP would have been to sit there and randomly Dilectio Heal throughout the run.
Another Example:
Another HH earlier this week in D1. Actually I think it was like 2 days ago..? Kind of opposite experience, This time I was using Dilectio and supporting a very much in need party. Buffs, Res’s, Prefatio, Dilectio, etc. for the back lines. I did not really have time to generate AP with Dilectio and Rel/Bene only get you a portion of the way. I could not generate enough AP to keep Compe up myself.
Interestingly, @“Canis”#428 was with us on this run. Canis definitely carried the party forward as our lurer/mobbers and used Dilectio on herself significantly more than I used it. She was able to keep Compe up for the party due to this usage I believe.
In ToT I will see our Cardi standing off to the side spamming Dilectio on themselves to generate AP.. Though I play Biolo there and I’m usually busy trying to shadow protect people, so I don’t pay attention to what all is going on there. I’d be curious to get more ToT perspectives.
aewuuI I don’t think anyone disagreed with this. In fact, I agreed with you a little later:
@KaptainPickles aewuu
I agree with adding AP generation to Acies, Telum, and Vita though…
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Original author: fuqueiji (Flarum #998)
@fuqueiji As Canis said in the post you linked, for field farming you can just go back. Also, as I said, for instances with party play we have EMs.
@KaptainPickles My points regarding the scenarios you presented still stand
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Original author: jinbou (Flarum #618)
Also as a general reminder: we follow kRO and we have not touched skills outside of PvP.
Which is for the best, considering the chaos that would ensue with the alternative 
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Original author: telu (Flarum #782)
@GM_Icecold Thanks everyone for sharing your experiences and examples. It’s clear there are two angles being discussed here:
Whether AP generation for Support Cardinal is workable with the tools we currently have.
Whether the current loop feels natural and role-aligned during real party gameplay.
Thank you for this, I think it needed to be repeated because I said it explicitly in the first post but some people like aewuul seem to think they’re the only one that know you can spam useless skills to get your AP back.
As for the case I experience the most frustration here’s the scenario : teaming with few people (1 to 3) to do late game content (depth or awakened jor temple for example) but not very hard content like TOT. It’s a difficulty level where healing is either handled by Mediale Votum + Renovatio or there’s an emergency and you need to use Reparatio but there’s no in between. Like it’s been said above for content where you need to turn in quests the problem solves itself thanks to the healer in town, but for 30 minutes farm sessions the problem is here.
In these cases Dilectio does nothing (Mediale heals 3-4 times more because it scales with target HP) and the number of targets to buff with Benedictum and Religio is very limited, and I spend most of the time handling low duration buffs like kyrie/odin’s/laudas, lexing mobs etc. None of these actions generate AP and I don’t feel like I’m contributing anything to the team if I stay behind self healing/boosting or spamming Framen on monsters.
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Original author: KaptainPickles (Flarum #722)
I guess I didn’t really address those..
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@fuqueiji for field farming you can just go back.
That’s.. not really a solution. Its more of a.. “hack”? I guess I ask, why should Cardis have to, but no one else?
@fuqueiji instances with party play we have EMs
Yes, EMs can provide AP. Relying on an EM for AP during instance play is a solution to one area the issue presents itself, but not to the problem as a whole.
@fuqueiji If you want to buff AP regen for party with just yourself, I’d vouch for not buffing cause it would be another argument for not playing with other people.
I think I speed read through this the first time. Maybe I’m misreading this.. but am I to understand this to mean just.. “Don’t buff as a support cardi, so you can regen AP”?
@fuqueiji Also, can you give us some words about: What is the line for buffing other classes that have a gameplay that “is not what it was supposed to have”
“What is the line for buffing other classes..”? I don’t understand what you’re asking for here.
@fuqueiji I agree that the “trade off” is a very not interesting thing, but should we start changing other RO mechanics also?
Out of scope and off topic really.. But we already do. We have plenty of custom RO mechanics. Skill specific? As Ice mentioned - we haven’t touched skills yet. But that’s quite literally the point of this post.
This all said, this thread has gotten long.. Read through my previous responses if anyone wants a clear picture with examples and what my thoughts are. Unfortunately I don’t expect a change to happen, despite Support Cardis really needing one imo..
Consider this my +1 to buffing AP regen for support Cardis, in any way.
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Original author: GM_Icecold (Flarum #3)
Thanks for everyone’s input so far.
I need to set a clear boundary here: personal callouts, insinuations about other players, and framing the discussion as “us vs them” is not acceptable. Again: Disagree with the point, not the person.
To be transparent: I’m a Cardinal player myself and I genuinely expected more from this discussion. We are always open to exploring new approaches, but this thread has shown that both sides are currently not able to keep the topic factual and respectful. In that environment, nothing useful comes out of it, and something as sensitive as skill adjustments requires clear heads and structured feedback, not “hated” camps arguing with each other.
Because of that, we will not be taking this thread into consideration, and for the time being we will also not be opening similar follow-up threads on this topic.
I’m going to close this thread now.