Imported from legacy Flarum.
Original author: telu (Flarum #782)
As a disclaimer I want to say that I’m generally against custom balance changes, but I still want to start a discussion on this situation.
As it is, playing support cardinal has a very frustrating problem : the support skills that grant AP are limited to Dilectio Heal (1 AP) and the traits boosting buffs (1 AP each,4 min duration). On the other hand offensive skills grant 2 AP per cast so the strategy to refill AP between 2 Competentia is to spam Framen on monsters, which is counter productive as a support.
So I would like to propose some custom changes to find a way to make support cardinal better at generating AP without making it too impactful on offensive cardi builds :
- Make Dilectio Heal AP gain scale with skill level (1/1/2/2/3 for levels 1-5). As non support don’t invest more than 3 points in this skill it would be a good way to affect support without having an impact on damage builds
- Make Repatation give a medium amount of AP, between 5 and 10. It’s a skill that is often used and maxed much more frequently as support and it can’t be spammed especially if it isn’t maxed, so again the impact on offensive build should be limited
By the way I don’t think that both suggestions need to be added, only one would be enough, or maybe another solution would be better?
I’d like to know what people think about it.
Imported from legacy Flarum.
Original author: Marshall01 (Flarum #1574)
I do agree that FS build cardi is really tough when it comes to AP regeneration skills, most of the skills are just giving 1 AP per cast and it really takes time to get enough to cast Competentia.
Hopefully this gets reviewed and implemented.
Imported from legacy Flarum.
Original author: aewuu (Flarum #575)
Dilectio Heal AP gain is balanced in such a way that you can cast it on yourself or any party members to regain AP. With high enough acd, aspd, turbo, regaining AP back for competentia, while not instantaneous, is doable.
Attack skills that generate AP of course yield higher due to the fact that the stronger you get, the less hits you’ll do to a monster. Meaning, less opportunities to build up AP.
Imported from legacy Flarum.
Original author: telu (Flarum #782)
It’s not that it isn’t doable, it’s that it is a pain and not aligned with what you’re supposed to do.
You say attack skills would get less opportunities to build AP the more you scale your damage but it’s wrong, if you’re farming on maps you will never run out of targets, even if you one shot monsters and if you’re doing boss instances killing the monster means the activity is over and you can go heal your AP back in town.
Support on the other hand is as you say : the best your healing gets the less you have to spam your skills and the slower you recover your AP organically, so it’s a paradox but the better you’re at healing the more you have to mindlessly spam dilectio (or framen which is more effective at AP regen).
Also quick math : to have 100% uptime on competentia you need to generate 160 AP in 5 minutes. With attack skills it means 16 skills per minute, with dilectio 32 per minutes. That means 1 attack every 4s vs 1 heal every 2s.
I think it’d be more interesting if support cardi was able to get AP by actually doing his job instead of healing targets that are full hp.
Imported from legacy Flarum.
Original author: KaptainPickles (Flarum #722)
Having a number of Cardis, and my first char being a Physical Cardi… I can absolutely say that Physical Cardi builds AP way way way faster than a Support Cardi. Easily. In my experience, it even tops Magic Cardi (though not by much).. Physical Cardi is just faster, and Support lacks the ability to generate. For example:
Physical Cardi I can usually re-compe in 60~90s when I re-up Mediale without issue. Petitio generates AP incredibly fast.
Magic Cardi is a little fuzzy on detail as I only played with compe skilled for a bit. AP gen was similar to Physical Cardi, but I found myself shy on AP when I went to rebuff a little more frequently than my Physical Cardi. This could be due to gears (My Physical Cardi is slightly better geared), or it could literally be the cool downs on the skills (Divinus Flos has .7s CD, Petitio only .5s CD).
Support Cardi on the other hand pretty much requires you to use Dilectio Heal. Which.. no one really uses Dilectio Heal, except to generate AP. Sometimes I use it to actually heal someone. But in reality.. most parties you’re too busy trying to buff or lex, you let Mediale/Renovatio/Reparatio be your main heals. None of these skills generate AP. None of the buffs generate AP on use.
So all this to be said.. I’m seriously on the fence about this. I have considered a post very similar to this one many times in the past. I usually steer clear of it because I prefer to stay away from messing with skills and customizing the play of the game as it was intended. HOWEVER, Support Cardi really did get kinda screwed with AP generation. Battle skills generate 2 AP, but Dilectio Heal only generates 1 and is a bit of a joke in general imo.
I guess I talked myself into a +1.
Imported from legacy Flarum.
Original author: aewuu (Flarum #575)
Support cardi re-buffing with benedictum and religio will also generate AP which adds up.
Sure, of course you won’t run out of monsters to use your ap generating skills on in a farm.
The only time AP becomes tight is during endgame instances, and that is if the user dies.
With my experience from high end instances, I’ve never had my cardis ever complain about ap generation and they always managed to cast it long before it expires.
It makes more sense to add AP generation on Acies, Telum, and Vita if skill modification is involved.
Tldr; competentia is only hard to re-cast if your party wipes… Multiple times… By then I don’t think having or not having competentia is the issue.
Dilectio’s CD of 0.3s allows you to spam the skill 200 times in a minute btw.
Imported from legacy Flarum.
Original author: danieltran88 (Flarum #1512)
+1 from me
Make Dilectio Heal AP gain scale with healed target. +1 addition AP per target, up to 4 AP (Max AP gain = 5)
Imported from legacy Flarum.
Original author: danieltran88 (Flarum #1512)
@aewuu if you forcus on spamming skills to gain AP back, no time for doing something such as 3rd skill buffs and lex spam
Imported from legacy Flarum.
Original author: aewuu (Flarum #575)
The only time you need to “spam skills to gain AP back”, is when for whatever reason - your party or yourself wipes.
It’s the same for all class lol.
Ex: Windhawk traps, AM frozen slash etc.
With Dilectio heal AP gain increase to say 4 or even 5 AP that equals to 800 to 1000 AP points per MINUTE.
I’m not telling you to to stop all your other responsibilities as a cardi. Of course you will still buff while trying to gain AP. Unfortunately some classes such as cardi is a high APM class. Not everyone meet the demands for it.
Imported from legacy Flarum.
Original author: KaptainPickles (Flarum #722)
@aewuu
Not necessarily true for a support Cardi. When you don’t always need to use the skills that generate AP.. you wind up running into a situation where you can’t Compe because your AP isn’t there.
For ex., I ran D2 with a random party during HH one of these last few days. This party did not really need direct heals, Renovatio + Mediale on the main DPS and some Reparatio was fine for the 30 min run. I did not have need for Dilectio Heal and I could not keep Compe up unless we went back to turn in and I used the healer. The only way for me to have generated anywhere near enough AP would have been to sit there and randomly Dilectio Heal throughout the run.
This all said, imo 2AP per heal is fine for AP generation. 1AP is to few. 4AP is too much. Potentially 3AP with some special limitations maybe (3+ healed for ex)? But I personally think we should be looking at other skills.. Reparatio and Mediale don’t generate AP and they are like primary support Cardi skills. I think casting Mediale/Reparatio should generate 2 AP at least given their CD.
Imported from legacy Flarum.
Original author: Planta (Flarum #761)
@KaptainPickles
You don’t really need to stop to generate AP as Cardinal, and taking your example in D2, it is not too hard to move and keep up with the party while spamming Religio/Benedictum on yourself.
Also having a Healer NPC that fully recovers AP solves the problem. I can’t see a situation where you don’t have the AP to recast Competentia besides Tower of Trials and/or CT due to a wipe. In other dungeons/instances you can easily warp back to your savepoint and quickly return to the action.
Imported from legacy Flarum.
Original author: KaptainPickles (Flarum #722)
@Planta
I guess I don’t follow the logic here. Why should support Cardis have to work extra to generate AP by spamming additional skills on themselves while trying to move with the party and not be able to generate AP naturally? The rest of the party generates AP naturally just by using their skills to kill or support. Why is this an acceptable trade off for Cardis?
Imported from legacy Flarum.
Original author: aewuu (Flarum #575)
Cardi actually has it easier compared to other classes like IG.
Devo IG generates 150 AP per minute, at 25 casts because their skill is at 2.4 cd via cross rain.
Cardi does generate AP naturally via buffing and dilectio. It is actually faster to cast the buffing skills than casting dilectio on yourself. Because each skill is at 0.25 cd, so that’s about 240 AP.
You also have to consider that each ultimate/steroid buff for each class is a selfish effect. While cardi gives a substantial full restore + 50 stats that compliments both types of damage for ALL party members within range.
Imported from legacy Flarum.
Original author: KaptainPickles (Flarum #722)
@aewuu But Dilectio rarely gets used, as I’ve already stated. And buffing doesn’t generate AP, as I’ve already stated (with exception to TWO skills).
Imported from legacy Flarum.
Original author: telu (Flarum #782)
@aewuu “Cardi does generate AP naturally via buffing and dilectio”
See that’s where we disagree. Yes you can generate AP with the traits buffing skills, but that means you’re spending 100+ skill casts not being useful to your party since you’re just spamming skills on yourself.
I really like the suggestion from @“danieltran88”#1512 since it allows support cardi to gain AP more easily by healing his mates and doesn’t impact the AP generation of dps cardi.
Imported from legacy Flarum.
Original author: aewuu (Flarum #575)
No reason to buff a skill when it is already good.
You want to promote and buff action per minute, or “action points” then look into adding AP to Acies, Telum, and Vita.
Cardis dont need to use dilectio for the entire 300 seconds to get enough AP for the next comp. If you do need extra AP for high end instances, ask a support EM. Just how it is intended.
Imported from legacy Flarum.
Original author: telu (Flarum #782)
@aewuu You want to promote and buff action per minute, or “action points” then look into adding AP to Acies, Telum, and Vita.
yeah that’s an interesting alternative.
Imported from legacy Flarum.
Original author: KaptainPickles (Flarum #722)
@aewuu
I agree with adding AP generation to Acies, Telum, and Vita though. Cardis should not have to work additionally, or have to ask other classes for AP. They should be able to generate AP naturally, just like their party members. Their current AP generation just isn’t there to be able to do this in most situations. Adding AP generation to these would certainly help.
However, I disagree with this current Cardi play style being “how it is intended”. I guess I don’t understand why people think it is totally OK for a Cardi to have to follow people around and not only buff everyone, but also do additional work on the side with no benefit (spam Dilectio, spam Religio, ask for AP..). It’s not OK, Its not natural, and surely this can NOT be the intended play style. Surely it was intended for the Cardi to be healing party members. But the fact is that Cardis already have 130402934 other healing skills, many of which already do the job easier than Dilectio. There are times I even remove Dilectio from my skill bar entirely. Its just situational.
Imported from legacy Flarum.
Original author: aewuu (Flarum #575)
Support cardi only has competentia to use all their AP on. The moment you start to “buff” AP generation “just because”, you increase the frequency of usage for DPS. Effligo costs 12 AP per cast, Pnuematicus Procella is 20.
Sure, AP generation can feel steep for compententia if you die but that’s for everyone lol.
If you start with 200 AP, and use compententia, you have 40 left over AP. So you only need to generate 120 AP for the next one. Which is only 36 seconds. For the next compententia, 48 second. You need to spend a grand total of 84 seconds during 3 compententia of 900 seconds.